just a thought but does everyone else have aches/stiffness in their leg muscles just about everytime they run? Mine seem to, although it may be associated with old age, mostly the stiffness gets better during the run, but my legs always feel stiff to start with.:-(
Yup.
To expand on that, I find my legs start complaining just about the time I realise I need to get changed to go out. They moan and groan when I tie up my laces, and they wail uncontollably when I open the front door.
Like you, though, I find the aches and strains dissappear after a mile or so (after around 15 minutes). I suffer most in the mornings after a run the day/ night before.
I had an interesting experience on holiday in Dorset last Summer.
Waking one morning in my caravan in Ringstead Bay, I was inspired by the beauty of my surroundings and the gentle sea breeze, pulled on my runners for the first time since FLM 04 and jogged along the beach for a mile or so. I climbed a steep cliff and continued along the clifftops for a further couple of miles, finishing a 5 mile round trip, by which time I'd worked up a nice sweat (sorry, nasty visuals). I nipped into the sea to cool off, and spent around 20 minutes splashing about and floating in the salt water before showering and relaxing on the beach.
Next morning, when I had every right to expect severe pain, tightness and the certain knowledge that I'll never do THAT again, I awoke - with not a single twinge, anywhere. I reckon there's a fair bit to this ice-bath malarky as deployed post-match by the Rugby boys, but I'll be dashed if I'm going to start all that in January.
Ultimately I think if you remember that you cannot stretch enough before or after a run, and follow the advice therein, that will help. Suprisingly few amateur runners take anywhere near the required time to stretch properly, especially post-run. So I'm told by 'them' (those that run a lot).
The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph
I'm sure you're right Sweder, but I'd add that most of us underestimate the value of rest (which is related to the recovery stretching and the dip in the sea that you mentioned). My running has been a bit sporadic recently and to be honest I haven't suffered too much from these aches and pains. But including today, I've now run 5 days out of 6 and guess what? My legs are really aching this evening. Obviously a lot depends on just how hard you train (not usually very hard in my case) but I think we need to force ourselves to take a day or two off more often. Tomorrow for instance I was looking forward to teaming up with the running group again that I came across last night, but after this evening's run, and bearing in mind that I have to do my longish run on Friday this week rather than Saturday, I'm having to force myself to take a rest instead. We tend to get paranoid about taking two days off in a row but I'm increasingly finding that a run after a 2 day break is much stronger than the others. I've even read training advice that states that over-40s shouldn't run on two successive days
The other thing is the usual reminder about reassessing your shoes from time to time. A lot of injuries are blamed on surfaces and overtraining when the wrong, or worn, footwear is to blame. Probably not relevant to SW in this case, but worth repeating.
El Gordo
Great things are done when men and mountains meet.
I find your reply very reassuring Sweder. I would love to be able to dip in the sea after a run, hadn't thought about the effect of cold water, I tend to rush into a hot shower, or if I have run from home, as opposed to work, a wonderfullly hot bath. Stretching - what's that? I have only very rarely stretched before running, I feel such a pillock stood on the pavement stretching out! :-) and only stretch after a run if I remember. Mental note for lunchtime today, will stretch before I go out - promise! Not sure about the cold shower though, perhaps I could just use the cold water on my lower leg??
Andy, only running every other day for the over 40's? Seems like a good idea, but wouldn't fit in with Hal's marathon training - good point about shoes though, switched to Nike Triax about 150 miles ago - swore I would never wear Nike!- after trying on everything in our local running shop, love them and it has cured the knee pain I was getting after about 400 miles into my last shoes - Puma Complete Extol - I use a sorbothane heel pad as well as I am heavy on my heels.
What I would really like to do after my longish runs is get a sports massage, I was getting these regularly when I was having physio after I sprained my ankle last year and they were wonderfully rejuvenating, wonder if I could do it myself? Don't suppose it would be the same 'though.
stillwaddler Wrote:I have only very rarely stretched before running, I feel such a pillock stood on the pavement stretching out! :-) and only stretch after a run if I remember. Mental note for lunchtime today, will stretch before I go out - promise!
Stretching BEFORE a run is not regarded as important as it once was from what I can see. I keep reading stuff saying that 'research shows' that stretching before a run, when your muscles aren't warm, is pretty useless and can even be dangerous. Hal Higdon recommends a bit of stretching about a mile into a run if you're going to do it at the start at all. Stretching afterwards is definitely helpful for avoiding injury though, and will help to reduce those aches and pains. Since I strained my calf a couple of times in 2003 I've always done a few calf stretches in particular after a run and have had no repeat. I usually do a few random others too but I don't go overboard. It definitely aids recovery though, and makes you feel better the next day. (But I agree that a massage is the nicest way of achieving this...)
stillwaddler Wrote:Andy, only running every other day for the over 40's? Seems like a good idea, but wouldn't fit in with Hal's marathon training
Well I don't know about that, SW.
It's true that HH schedules tend to be at least 4 runs a week, or 5 for the intermediate and advanced, but I'd make a couple of points. He always stresses that the schedules are a guide, and can be tailored within reason. He says you can substitute cross-training for a session, particularly those shorter midweek recovery runs. If you were going to go for alternate running days you could do:
Sunday - long run as per schedule
Monday - rest day
Tuesday - normal midweek run as per schedule inc speed/intervals etc if desired
Wednesday - cross training
Thursday - normal longish midweek run as per schedule
Friday - rest day
Saturday - long run as per schedule
Sunday - cross training
Monday - normal easy Tuesday as per schedule
Tuesday - rest day
Wednesday - normal longish midweek run as per schedule
Thursday - cross training
Friday - normal easy Thursday run as per schedule
Saturday - rest day
Sunday - long run as per schedule
... and so on.
The cross training could still be pretty taxing if you wanted it to - cycling, swimmimg, hill walking, and cardio-vascular, but just avoids the same stresses on the same muscles as the previous day's running. That would make a pretty respectable training plan for the over-40s I would say. It still includes a long weekend run and three cardio-vascular workouts in the week.
El Gordo
Great things are done when men and mountains meet.
Your alternative plan looks rather tempting Andy, I will definitely consider trying it for a week or two to see how I fair. I have been tweaking a bit this week as haven't been able to do my long runs at the weekend for the last couple of weeks as seem to have been permanently tied to the kitchen - ahh shame. I did stretch gently before and after running this lunchtime, also did a little upper body stuff with a few weights, it's great having a gym at work even if it is tiny. Running up a long hill into the wind was a little "testing".
Agreed, post run stretching is the key to avoiding stiffness and tightning in the legs. Andy is far better informed than I (well, he reads so that's an advantage right off the bat) so I'd follow his advice.
Personally I hate stretching at any time, but I hate it slightly less than the feeling that my hamstrings are auditioning for a place in the London Philharmonic strings section (as they were this morning).
Our Jog Shop Guru gave me a useful tip on pre-track stretches (which I think is more relevant as in track work you tend to exert more pressure on muscles during 'high speed' sprints). He observed a number of runners touching their toes and 'bouncing' to reach the floor. Bouncing during stretching is a common error and can cause injury. Slow stretches where you gently increase the tension in the muscles to an optimum point and hold for a few seconds seem to be the ticket.
Sam gave us a 10 point warm up/ pre-run stretch. Its very simple and avoids the elaborate origami that you often see in running clubs and at the track.
1. Touch your toes (or at least wave to them) keeping legs straight
2. Bend backwards from the waist, head back, to warm the back muscles
3. Side stretch left (tilt to left, slide left hand down left leg - ooh err, missus)
4. Side stretch right (opposite of 3)
5. Twist left (hands together and turn at waits to left and hold)
6. Twist right (opp of 5 . . .you get the idea)
7. Left knee grab (lift left knee as high as possible, pull in to chest)
8. Right knee grab . . .
9. Left thigh stretch (hold left ankle and raise behind back to stretch thigh)
10. Right thigh stretch . . .
11. Clean off gravel/ mud/ grass where you fell over during 7 - 10. DM
To be honest with you SW I haven't tried a luke warm bath let alone one of the ice variety. I hope to extend running to post FLM this year, in which case I will join SP on Seaford Seafront and test the skinny-dipping theory further in (slightly) warmer times. Domestic body-washing appliances are designed to dispense hot water, and who are we to meddle in such matters? I'm with you on that one.
The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph
Sweder Wrote:1. Touch your toes (or at least wave to them) keeping legs straight
2. Bend backwards from the waist, head back, to warm the back muscles
3. Side stretch left (tilt to left, slide left hand down left leg - ooh err, missus)
4. Side stretch right (opposite of 3)
5. Twist left (hands together and turn at waits to left and hold)
6. Twist right (opp of 5 . . .you get the idea)
7. Left knee grab (lift left knee as high as possible, pull in to chest)
8. Right knee grab . . .
9. Left thigh stretch (hold left ankle and raise behind back to stretch thigh)
10. Right thigh stretch . . .
11. Clean off gravel/ mud/ grass where you fell over during 7 - 10. DM
This is not very far removed from Jason Gillespie's warm up routine before he bowls during a match. Although personally I find touching toes a pain in the back and the hamstrings, and causes a rather distasteful rush of blood to the head. You do see Mathew Hayden and Ricky Ponting doing a lot of toe touching however, so there must be something in it. I relate more to the "waggling your hands in the general direction of the ground" kind of stretch. Gentle, and quite friendly to anyone who happens to be lying on the floor nearby...
If you're talking about pre-bowling warm-ups, you have to include Merv Hughes. That guy was hilarious, a one man travelling show, cavorting around the boundaries' edge and pulling the most outrageous poses in the name of limbering up.
Toe-touching is a figurative expression and should not be taken literally.
SP touches his toes all too regularly, and his avatar is testament to what that can lead to. I'm with you, MLC Man - waving (not drowning).
With respect to the fact that we're in General Running, I'll mention that I suffered no ill effects following my 6 mile off-roader today.
The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph
Ha ha, yes! Remember this one? The day someone let a very fast dog onto the field which no-one could catch ... except Merv of course, who used canine cunning to do so. A crowd-pleaser extraordinaire!
Oops, I seem to have hijacked another thread. To keep this running related I'll mention that my new Asics running shoes are very nice.
Yes indeed, although only to a very small degree at the moment. I think now however I can declare myself pretty much fit enough to start ramping things up to nearer where they should be. No racing for now though.
To keep this thread cricket related I'll mention Dennis Lillee.
Aside from the usual aches and pains (knees, ankles, shins) I seem to get a lot of lower back pain. This usually follows offroad/ hill work. I get moans and groans from the area during long hill climbs, but it's a good deal worse after the run and the following day.
I usually stretch my back pre-run (arch backwards) but I'm wondering if I should deploy some form of girdle or other appealling apparell to provide superior support. Naturally this would be affixed beneath my running garb to protect my fellow mud-pluggers.
Answers on a postcard please . . .
In deference to the cricketing nature of this thread, I'd like to say how incredibly perceptive of the England Cricket team to send home their bowling coach from South Africa 2 days after the most inept bowling display in 13 tests.
The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph
My wife and I were invited to attend a friends' party on Saturday night. Sadly our baby-sitter cried off sick, so we drew straws and I ended up going. I hung around for 30 minutes (there was only one can of Guinness on arrival. I'd neglected to bring a backup supply, opting instead for bottle of something white and chilled that had resided in our 'fridge since the millennium) and was about to depart when some local runners arrived.
We immediately formed a cluster in the back garden and swapped tales of running and injury, whereupon, just as our host erected hazard signs - danger, extreme bores at work - my back issue arose. Maria, a superb athlete and sub 1:30 half marathoner (last year - her first race!) suggested that runners require a 'strong core'. She recommended a visit to a sports physio to get some strengthening exercises. This sounds eminently sensible, so I thought I'd pass it on, whilst asking 'what's a bloody core then?' and, if you know, 'how does one strengthen it?'
I would have asked on the night, but instead chose to smile inanely and pretend like I knew what the hell she was talking about.
The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph
Looks like you're on the way to a Pilates class, old chap.
Your 'core' is basically your waist area, and Pilates is all about strengthening it.
My wife's new Pilates term starts this evening (Monday), and I'm thinking of inviting myself along. Good for runners. I did it a year or so ago for a while, and did find the exercises useful.
El Gordo
Great things are done when men and mountains meet.
That's my trademark stoop, the inbuilt instinct to thrust across the finishing line . . . OK, holding this pose for 16 K may be a little excessive. I'll talk to the boys on Tuesday night. Thanks for the observation SP
The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph
Just did a google - apparently Roy Pilates bowls left arm offies for Portsmouth Transport Co. in the Southern Business Houses mid-week league. Known to his mates as "Hammie" ... doesn't augur well for Sweder somehow.
